r/worldnews Sep 22 '22 Wholesome 7 All-Seeing Upvote 2 Take My Energy 1 Take My Power 1 Silver 2 Helpful 4

Zelenskyy calls on Russians to 'protest' and 'fight back' against Putin's draft if they 'want to survive' Russia/Ukraine

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3.1k

u/DecimBell Sep 22 '22

Good news is, molotovs are already flying into the windows of military registration and enlistment offices. Bad news is, this is probably where it ends.

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u/EpicGuard Sep 22 '22

Has there ever been a forced conscription without protest?

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '22

Probably the first one because people didn't know what was happening.

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u/clintCamp Sep 22 '22

My distant ancestor was conscripted by a local lord to try and take out the British monarchy. They lost, the Lord was executed and we got banished to the American colonies.

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u/ZedTT Sep 22 '22

Oh yeah let's just put all the people who tried to kill the monarch in one place and tax them without representation they won't revolt or anything

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u/kamikazi1231 Sep 22 '22

I mean it lasted for a good century and a half. Future kings problem.

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u/Striking-Math259 Sep 22 '22

Depends how far back I suppose

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u/Oldballs2 Sep 23 '22

Under rated comment right there. “Simpsons did it” Ve va las Simpson’s

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u/Wermillion Sep 23 '22

Ve va?

7

u/Grigoran Sep 23 '22

Like "viva" but for those who don't know how to spell it

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u/nictheman123 Sep 23 '22

To be fair, that place was "way the fuck over there where they can't reach us" so there's some sense to that.

Did they revolt? Sure. Did they do any damage to the homeland, Parliament, or the monarchy? Not at all!

Good for keeping control of the colony? Perhaps not. Good for keeping the brewing peasant revolt from harming anyone you consider important? Absolutely!

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u/Sentinel-Wraith Sep 23 '22

To be fair, that place was "way the fuck over there where they can't reach us" so there's some sense to that.

Did they revolt? Sure. Did they do any damage to the homeland, Parliament, or the monarchy? Not at all!

Captain John Paul Jones: "Am I a joke to you?"

2

u/nictheman123 Sep 23 '22

First of all, here's a reddit formatting guide to help you with those block quotes

Second, he managed to partially damage one port town and failed to take some minor Earl hostage according to that article you just listed. So, as far as doing damage to the British homeland, yeah, kinda a joke.

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u/Unions4America Sep 22 '22

What do you mean? Sounds brilliant to me. Just like when Hitler logically came to the conclusion 'The only way to feed the German people long-term is to invade the East' rather than 'We can just be peaceful and trade for food with foreign nations.' Fool proof plan, if you ask me.

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u/DefiantLemur Sep 23 '22

I'm glad he's a idiot. The world would have been worse off if he stopped after taking Poland, Austria, Rhinelands and Czechoslovakia and consolidated his power into a dystopic hell in Central Europe.

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u/hi_me_here Sep 23 '22

it would've collapsed within a decade, max, no matter what. the Nazis had No long term economic plans and the German economy as it was under his rule could only function on aggressive military expansion because they didn't actually have the ability to pay for all the checks they were writing, and they wouldn't be able to maintain any international trade due to either bankruptcy or warfare blockades or both. All of their spending was military focused, that shit isn't useful if you're not using it, nobody's buying it and you can't afford to keep it running yourself. It can't project power overseas because the German Navy was miniscule and had no hope of contesting Britain's seapower well enough to attempt any kind of invasion of the UK, especially with the USSR waiting in the east for a moment of weakness. without taking out the UK, they're stuck on dry land, forever, no matter what, and, again, running out of gas

the Nazis were utterly dependent on conquering, robbing and enslaving everyone and everything in reach to keep the gears turning - the only way he could've swung that around is by taking the oil fields down in the caucasus, which meant invading Russia, which wasn't winnable and would only become less winnable as time went on

Without taking the oil fields, they run out of oil for heavy industry and fuel and collapse. If he didn't invade the ussr, even if the US never entered the war, the ussr would have invaded Germany by 1944 at the very latest, earlier if France was still intact. If he invades France, now he's got the entire Atlantic Coast of Europe to secure, useless for trade because of the royal navy blockading him indefinitely, with ever dwindling fuel and resources to run his war machine. if the war machine stops running, Nazi Germany stops existing, either due to internal collapse or external invasion or both

it was just a bad plan all around - don't invade

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u/Chitown2181 Sep 23 '22

What a nightmare. What a different world.

No one would have stopped him.

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u/Leege13 Sep 23 '22

The issue was he couldn’t stop himself. Once he got conquering, he couldn’t just stop at a few countries, he wanted all of Europe. Thought he was building a Reich and all he was doing was cosplaying Napoleon, even including the Russian invasion.

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u/Kaymish_ Sep 23 '22

Dude had other motivating factors than he was just a power hungary arsehole. The money looted from the first few conquests didn't really pay off his creditors enough so he needed to keep going. Also the USSR hated his guts and Stalin was furiously building up to take him out; they would have come for him eventually so Hitler felt he had to strike first before Stalin was powerful enough to crush the Nazis. Its the same dynamic that was between the German Empire and the Russian empire in WWI Germany felt they needed to deal with russia before they had modernised enough to crush them.

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u/gryphmaster Sep 23 '22

He really pulled off the cosplay in the end tho, real devotion to realism with the whole “lose massive battle after battle” after uniting all of remaining europe against you

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u/watduhdamhell Sep 23 '22

The only way to make sure you kill all the interior races and such, the way he envisioned, is to conquer the world. I mean, really. If he didn't conquest for it all, it meant being okay with interiors living happily for however long. He just couldn't have that.

Luckily he was far too tunnel-visioned over his hatred to realize the long game would have been the right play, even if it meant allowing the hated to live for a while longer.

What a combination of POS/psychopath/warmonger/fascist. I mean, really. He may be the worst person to have ever lived with real power... and hopefully, it stays that way.

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u/oijsef Sep 23 '22

Same for Japan right? If they never attacked the US they could have just enjoyed raping their conquered lands in SE asia.

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u/Plenty_Somewhere_762 Sep 23 '22

What a different world....oh wait were back to being worried about Russians and their nuclear weapons. It's 1980 all over again.

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u/werepanda Sep 23 '22

That was not the reason why Hitler started invasion

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u/Aschrod1 Sep 23 '22

I mean it worked until we were made to pay for a war… for our defense. Palpatine esque irony intensifies

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u/jisaacs1207 Sep 23 '22

Isn’t it agreed that the French and Indian War was just a proxy environment of the Seven Years War, which means that it really wouldn’t have happened without the monarchy?

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u/Riothegod1 Sep 23 '22

Yep, and with the resulting Royal Proclamation it was decreed “The American Indian is to go unmolested”. This meant the 13 colonies had nothing to show for the war effort. And that’s not getting into the turmoil caused by restoring Quebec language and religious rights to secure their loyalty. Especially since winning meant Canada had to take on all the loyalists fleeing country.

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u/Aschrod1 Sep 23 '22

Ehhhh… but why was there conflict there in the first place and what did the Americans do after gaining independence? The colonial militia was on board and the promise of further expansion is a big motivator. Anecdotally, GW the great was a surveyor and land speculator. It’s possible part of the impetus for revolt was also that Indian territory was off limits after the 7 years war. The same people stayed in power after the revolt too. The colonists were uh… real bad people as a collective who really liked land. So we can wink and say fuck you George, but it was also what we showed we wanted also. 🤷🏼‍♂️

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u/jisaacs1207 Sep 23 '22

The Proclamation of 1763 was unpopular, for sure, but in terms of the reason for the French and Indian War-it was kind of just an extension of the Seven Years War. It’s really only named the French and Indian War in American history books, from my understanding, because it is only seen as a different thing by Americans. It, otherwise, is just another venue of a global conflict.

Realistically, having to pay for an imposed war after generations of salutary neglect would be enough to rattle anyone-even today.

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u/Aschrod1 Sep 23 '22

Oh for sure, but blaming it completely on the Master is not the same as admitting the subject was complacent as well. The reasons the colonists fought in the war are the same reasons the Americans bought, stole and fucked across a continent that will take countless generations to settle completely in a little under 100 years, 200 if you want permanent US. The war would have happened Monarch or no. At that time? Probably not. But it’s foolish to just say British did it. Global conflict. 🤷🏼‍♂️ People don’t work that way.

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u/LilSpermCould Sep 23 '22

I mean we did Ukraine them. They looked down upon us, wrote us off as a bunch of idiots from the garbage classes of humanity. They messed around and found out. However, as others have pointed out, had the crown fully committed to dealing with us low lives, they would have handled business.

Seems to be similar in some ways to Russia's mistakes. Had they done their due diligence and properly committed to the war it would have ended quickly. No HIMARs in significant numbers until July. Now look at Ukraine, they had the time to prepare and train with weapons that are supreme force multipliers on top of tactics built upon exploiting predictable Russian tactics.

As an American, how can you not be proud for Ukraine. We're the ancestors of people who made somewhat similar sacrifices hundreds of years ago.

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u/Brapapple Sep 23 '22

Ya know it's a lot more nuanced then that, America was basically skipping out on the tax, the royals dgaf. Your representative was telling us it was all roses, so no attempts to fix the relationship were made.

It's almost petulant, but hey at least you got freedom, don't forget to pay your hospital bill on your way to your zero holiday job.

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u/SkyNightZ Sep 23 '22

Tax without representation is a myth.

Any Americans that truly believe that this had anything to do with the civil war don't care about history. They just care about parroting falsehoods.

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u/poopyhelicopterbutt Sep 23 '22

The civil war or the war of independence?

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u/ZedTT Sep 23 '22

Civil war? I'm talking about the war of independence lol what

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u/Loggerdon Sep 22 '22 edited Sep 23 '22

My wife's maternal grandfather was Shanghai'd from China to Singapore in the 1940s. He stayed and built a fortune by selling ice cream cones (not the ice cream, just the cones). My wife didn't get any of the fortune though because it all went to the first (idiot) son, not her mother.

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u/Big-Letterhead-4338 Sep 23 '22

Primogeniture and daughters are destined for other families mentality. Too bad the family business wasn't passed to the better hands (assuming) of your wife's mother.

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u/boytekka Sep 23 '22

Same thing happened to my mother in law, her family has some big coconut plantations in the Philippines and when her chinese father went back to mainland china to his family (original) he gave everything to her only sibling (older brother). My wife’s still pretty salty about it since her mother was not given even a plot of land or small amount of money

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u/Caster-Hammer Sep 23 '22

I mean, she should at least have gotten a lifetime supply of them.

Just not all at once.

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u/dangerislander Sep 23 '22

Damnn I thought it was gonna be like Crazy Rich Asians kinda story lol

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u/OppositeYouth Sep 22 '22

Sucks, they could have at least sent you to Australia

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u/clintCamp Sep 22 '22

I went to Jamaica once and met a whole bunch of Jamaicans with my same last name. I have to assume that great great uncle wasn't so great and had a plantation long ago. That is where he got banished to.

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u/cogra23 Sep 22 '22

Not necessarily, Irish names in Jamaica existed because there were Irish indentured servers there for example.

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u/dangerislander Sep 23 '22

And a lot of the Irish actually taught the African slaves how to speak english. Hence why they say Jamaican accent is heavily influenced by Irish.

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u/Pihkal1987 Sep 23 '22

Not necessarily but definitely not even remotely out of the question. This was pretty common practice for freed slaves (to take the plantation owners last name because they didn’t know their own.)

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u/gimpwiz Sep 23 '22

The brits sent other whites to Jamaica and other islands in the Caribbean as slaves or indentured servants. Convicts, etc. Of course, "convict" does not necessarily mean "guilty of a crime"...

Plantation owners bought them to work the plantations, obviously.

So I guess somewhat less of a banishment, and more of a ... being sold as a slave or into indenture. Banishment is milder, you get to the same place (or elsehwere) but without the chains.

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u/clintCamp Sep 23 '22

But do other slaves get your family name?

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u/accountno543210 Sep 22 '22 edited Sep 23 '22

All plantation owners weren't assholes. Some of them actually followed some semblance of decency and only made enough money to send their kids to university and sell the plantation to a merchant to launder into other corporations.

Edit: awh come on, I'm not supporting slavery guys! I'll accept my punishment, but I'm not deleting anything.

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u/Fruehdom Sep 23 '22

Slave, serf, and indentured servitude must have been had great pay and rights then correct?

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u/DuskyDay Sep 23 '22

Aren't plantation owners people who worked slaves?

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u/clintCamp Sep 23 '22

I mean, there is a chance that they paid people fairly and they got to go live their own lives off the clock, but this was Jamaica, where the island is mostly African descent now, and they mostly moved across the Atlantic in the late 1600s by one method of travel accomodations. Chains.

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u/Wide-Pen-6647 Sep 22 '22

Lol, if you’re relying on slave labour (and in the West Indies the turnover for slaves was even higher than in America because people were worked to death), you’re still an asshole imho.

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u/mikekowa Sep 23 '22

I mean, Russia has more slaves now than anyone else ever, but that's rarely talked about. Siberia is MASSIVE.

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u/producerofconfusion Sep 23 '22

Oh they only owned human beings for their kids college fund that’s okay then how sweet

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u/w3bar3b3ars Sep 22 '22

This would be a funny joke if Australia wasn't absolutely dependant on America for security in the Pacific.

But yeah, America bad.

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u/FuckingKilljoy Sep 22 '22

Careful with all that salt, Americans already have a high sodium diet

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u/Robotlolz Sep 22 '22

Damn, best of all worlds. You get Medicare and America handles the security.

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u/FinndBors Sep 23 '22

America handles the security.

Against the poisonous animals?

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u/Burningrain85 Sep 22 '22

Some people call it security others call it protection money so they don’t burn your store down.

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u/Quackagate Sep 23 '22

As an American i hate how much we spend on our military. And yes we have a bad track record. And the same time your welcome. Dictate9rs and despots around the globe have been know to shut up and step in line when a US battle group shows up on there door. Not saying were perfect or we do no wrong but lots of people forget that our ovesized military has let other countries lean on it and reduce there defense spending, or at least not increase it(well to horribly much) so that it takes up a smaller % of there nations gdp than say 50 years ago. This alloying them to raise there standered of liveing. Not saying its always the case or has always been true but it dose play a part. But ya America bad.

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u/PartTimeZombie Sep 22 '22

Security from who?

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u/JumpyButterscotch Sep 23 '22

China is right there waiting for an empty Pacific.

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u/PartTimeZombie Sep 23 '22

You're deluded if you think China is invading Australia. How would they even do that?

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u/w3bar3b3ars Sep 23 '22

Is this a serious question? Why establish AUKUS if there are no threats? How much weight would that alliance carry without the US?

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u/vmBob Sep 22 '22

If you need to ask you won't even try to understand the answer.

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u/Sigmars_Toes Sep 23 '22

I mean, then you're just living on an American military base.

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u/Equivalent_Yak8215 Sep 23 '22

Pffft. If he made it to California or Hawaii he's golden.

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u/f4stEddie Sep 23 '22

Lol. You made this sound like it happened last week to your ancestor

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u/clintCamp Sep 23 '22

Oh, sometime a couple of years ago. Like the 1600s?

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u/Lone_Wanderer989 Sep 22 '22

Congrats on the defeat?¿?

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u/CharlieHume Sep 23 '22

I mean if you're gonna be stuck in one of the two worst imperialism humping nations at least you got the one with blackjack and hookers?

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u/tbone8352 Sep 23 '22

On a down note laws on drugs are very strict in Australia even compared to the US. Sucks because those things go hand in hand lol

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u/randomnameandanumber Sep 23 '22

The laws are strict, but the punishments for breaking those laws aren't.

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u/Garfield-1-23-23 Sep 23 '22

I'm really surprised that the whole drawing-and-quartering thing didn't seem to be a more effective deterrent.

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u/JohnGillnitz Sep 23 '22

Mine got tired of a civil war and came to Texas. Right before the Civil War. Doh!

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u/[deleted] Sep 23 '22

We cannot lament the past, for we are made by it. We cannot lament the future, for it is made by us.

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u/P00PMcBUTTS Sep 23 '22

That's actually a really cool claim to fame and neat that your family has been in America that long.

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u/gregorydgraham Sep 23 '22

The Levee En Masse was famously successful

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u/EifertGreenLazor Sep 22 '22

forced conscription after protesting, I believe is slavery.

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u/TrooperJohn Sep 22 '22

If you live in a dictatorship, you're a slave by default.

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u/purplewhiteblack Sep 23 '22

Putin January 15th, 2020 "according to the constitution I'm going to be out of office soon, so I'm just going to dissolve the constitution so I can stay in office forever"

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u/Maleficent_Average32 Sep 23 '22

So trumps plan?

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u/scummy_shower_stall Sep 23 '22

Not just trump, the whole damn Republican party, minus a single handful of outliers.

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u/ohgodspidersno Sep 23 '22

GOP has already drafted a bill for a nationwide abortion ban. Trumpist candidates are openly taking about how they disapprove of women's suffrage.

When someone tells you who they are, believe them. It's not an exaggeration to call them the Christian Taliban.

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u/created4this Sep 23 '22

I don’t think you find any less willing soldiers than soldiers that were conscripted at a peace march.

I’m sure that Putin has a plan though.

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u/Plaicewithcod Sep 23 '22

I would hate to be one of those people right now. When some general is looking for cannon fodder, what are the chances he uses that regiment?

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u/waigl Sep 23 '22

The US had conscription in Vietnam...

Also, yeah, conscription is forced, pretty much by definition. Connections to protesting are IMHO largely irrelevant.

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u/Stop_Sign Sep 23 '22

"No one can make a free person kneel" only applies to free people

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u/dumpsterfire_account Sep 23 '22

Plenty of countries do it without issue: Norway, Finland, Denmark, Greece, Israel

I think a draft is tougher than a society that requires and values a period of service.

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u/FluffyProphet Sep 22 '22

Didn't Ukraine implement conscription? I mean, it's wildly different though... Just pointing out that sometimes conscription is a popular choice.

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u/QuinIpsum Sep 22 '22

I think conscription for defense is an easier sell

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u/jjayzx Sep 22 '22

Right, oh hey you're going to war you didn't want against people that did nothing against you. Or we are being invaded and your home, loved ones and everything you know may cease to exist.

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u/invisible32 Sep 23 '22

It's almost just a matter of arming volunteers at that point.

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u/FreakyMcJay Sep 23 '22

Let's not pretend that's what it was. And no, I'm not a Russian shill, Ukraine has to win this war and they're justified in the measures they've taken.

Still: so many Ukrainian men were drafted against their will, barred from leaving the country and forced to take up arms. Saying they're "basically volunteers" is doing them a disservice for the horrors the are forced to live through (if they're lucky to live that is).

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u/zlance Sep 23 '22

Yeah, I know one Ukrainian who isn’t comfortable with that level of control over him. And I get it. Then again I follow some Ukrainians on Twitter and they were talking about lines to get drafted.

So some def didn’t love it, but many did it anyways because it’s their homeland and well… they finally got a solid chance of opening a a can of whoopass against their historic oppressor

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u/FreakyMcJay Sep 23 '22

Funny how it's always the keyboard warriors who seem most willing to fight. Not saying those people don't exist, but everyone can be brave from behind their computer screens. I know a bunch of Ukrainians I went to uni with, almost half of them were drafted and only one of those would've volunteered.

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u/Vugee Sep 23 '22

Yeah, Finland has conscription too for the male population (women can volunteer), but our military isn't in the habit of invading other countries. Also it's pretty much a thing solely, because we have an asshole for a neighbour.

There are also alternatives like civil service, medical exemptions or sitting a prison sentence (usually in the form of house arrest these days). That last one is typically a form of protest against the system and IIRC it doesn't leave a mark on your criminal record.

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u/nashedPotato4 Sep 23 '22

When your aunties and sisters are being raped it is fight to the last man

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u/BearsBeetsBttlstarrG Sep 23 '22

Important distinction

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u/lawofficeofbobloblaw Sep 22 '22

Conscriptive offense and conscriptive defense are very different in operation and implementation.

Many sociopathic and psychopathic people gleefully enter war on offensive fronts because of their desire and curiosity about killing. The rest have to be bribed, propagandized, or straight-up forced at gunpoint against either themselves or their families.

The same cannot be said for defensive fronts. People are far more willing to take up arms to defend their home with little to no questions when rape and death are on their front doorsteps.

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u/FluffyProphet Sep 23 '22

I feel like people are writing big paragraphs to agree with exactly what I'm saying in way too many words...

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u/Eponymous-Username Sep 23 '22 Silver

You need to understand that there are a plethora of words, providing a cornucopia of opportunities for self-expression. As a result, people sometimes over-indulge in their eagerness to opine, which can take what would otherwise have been a serviceable sentence elucidating their outlook to a grandiose and overwrought collection of clauses and subordinate clauses. If you feel there is redundancy in others reiterating your own position or repeating it back to you, it is entirely possible that your feeling is grounded in reality.

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u/terrible_rider Sep 23 '22

Lol. I see what you did there. Good stuff.

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u/lawofficeofbobloblaw Sep 23 '22

Apologies, it read to me as whataboutism.

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u/FluffyProphet Sep 23 '22

Not at all... I literally said they were wildly different. My point was just that conscription is sometimes a good choice

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u/suckmyleftunit Sep 23 '22

Reddit is slowly turning into Quora my dude. It's like asking for a recommendation of a good brand of coconut oil then got answered with it's history, manufacturing process, chemical reactions bla bla bla

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u/FinancialTea4 Sep 23 '22

Especially in this case where the invaders demonstrated early on that they're really not any better than rabid animals raping and murdering civilians everywhere they go. They pretty much took surrender off the table with that shit. I've said before ad I'll say it again. putin is a fucking dunce with that shit.

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u/[deleted] Sep 23 '22

Nailed it. I hate violence, aggression and most war. If my country was to be invaded I would easily defend it from the people who would take peace from me.

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u/passengerpigeon20 Sep 23 '22

I believe that in Finland conscripts are only ordered to serve in the defense force; if you want to do a tour of duty abroad you have to volunteer.

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u/idlerspawn Sep 23 '22

So every soldier is either a sociopath, psychopath, or rube?

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u/lawofficeofbobloblaw Sep 23 '22

How does being forced to go murder people over territory claim make one a “rube”? Did I say that?

In fact, I’m offering any semblance of sympathy I that I can for those types of people because their other choices are to flee or die. I have read over two dozen comments from anti-war Russians in the last ~48 hours.

Get off of it.

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u/idlerspawn Sep 23 '22

That's fair, I forgot to include slave in my list. So all soldiers are psychopaths, sociopaths, slaves or rubes?

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u/SizzleMop69 Sep 23 '22

It's a lot easier to sell this when you are being invaded.

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u/WineSoda Sep 23 '22

Now you know why they are professional soldiers. This happened not that long ago. Young boys remember and literally started training since March 2014. If there's something better than a great plan, it would be a planned great man: A soldier with a purpose. There's no army stronger than an army full of men who have a collective purpose. They are driven.

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u/branedead Sep 22 '22

And those times are usually when you're being invaded

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u/flopsyplum Sep 23 '22

Conscription was only a formality after Bucha.

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u/CombatMuffin Sep 23 '22

In ancient times, there were no professional armies. Not even standing armies. It all came down to a levy.

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u/F1NANCE Sep 23 '22

Did you have to drive your Chevy there?

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u/CombatMuffin Sep 23 '22

I did, but it was dry

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u/bigpoppin123 Sep 23 '22

Without massive protest? Yh all the European countries in ww1

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u/ProfMcGonaGirl Sep 23 '22

Everyone in Israel serves in the military in some capacity as soon as they are 18. Very very very few people have a problem with it.

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u/marishtar Sep 23 '22

Historically speaking, forced conscription has been the norm. Armies being all-volunteer is a pretty recent development. It's awesome we've gotten to a point in history where the opposite is considered bad.

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u/LesterKingOfAnts Sep 23 '22

There were draft riots in the North when Lincoln created a draft during the Civil War, the first draft in US history.

https://www.history.com/topics/american-civil-war/draft-riots

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u/makemeking706 Sep 22 '22 Silver

Much of Russian history begins and ends with explosions.

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u/Loggerdon Sep 22 '22

This is a good first line for a novel.

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u/Opinionbeatsfact Sep 23 '22 Silver

Not a bad last line either.......

...as Putin sank to the floor, his body both seemingly heavy yet light, he focused on the strange reality of his hands lying by the door in their own bath of vermillion blood. Much of Russian history begins and ends with explosions.

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u/FreeResolve Sep 23 '22

And then it got worse.

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u/pingveno Sep 23 '22

I've heard unexpected falls are more in vogue these days in the Russian Federation.

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u/doitfortheview Sep 23 '22

Nooowwwww this is a story all about how…

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u/sin-and-love Sep 23 '22

my reich got twist-turned upside down

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u/Spidey209 Sep 23 '22

You must be The Stale Tsar of Belgorod!

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u/dmcd0415 Sep 23 '22

I once read that all of Russian history can be summed up by the sentence, "And then things got worse."

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '22 edited Sep 23 '22

Is it the whole one molotov in St. Petersburg or I miss smth?

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u/VecnasThroatPie Sep 23 '22

Three recruitment offices went up in flames that I heard of.

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u/[deleted] Sep 23 '22

Wow, protests are 3 times more intense now /s

P.S. There is no hope for russia

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u/nashedPotato4 Sep 23 '22

There was in the 90s from what I understand. Peel off some layers of oligarchs and who knows 🤞

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u/guava_eternal Sep 23 '22

That country - that land is so incredibly rich in mineral wealth and at the crux of Eurasia. It’s the only plausible reason why Putin feels he needs to do all this. However, his people and history is telling him that looking at the world in so stark a black and white comes at a price.

When the dust settles there’s still a lot to be salvaged from the lane that is Russia.

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u/nnomadic Sep 22 '22

This is looking like a Russian Vietnam. I don't think it's going to stop anytime soon.

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u/flopsyplum Sep 23 '22

This will be much worse than Vietnam. Vietnam wasn’t backed by the richest countries in the world, and the U.S. wasn’t sanctioned.

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u/Vondett Sep 23 '22

It was backed by USSR all the way ... or am I wrong ... ?🤔

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u/Graega Sep 23 '22

Wait till the midterms. As deep in Russian pockets as so many GOP are, if Congress shifts watch them try to end our support of Ukraine.

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u/RayTracing_Corp Sep 23 '22

Are you fucking serious or do you just not know history.

Vietnam was bankrolled by The Soviet motherfucking Union AND China. It had some serious backing.

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u/uiucecethrowaway999 Sep 23 '22 edited Sep 23 '22

It’s far worse than a Vietnam, and in more relevant comparison, far worse than the Soviet Union’s Afghan misadventures.

The US military was never defeated in a sizeable military engagement in the Vietnam War. In fact, the power balance between the US military and the North Vietnamese/Viet Cong wildly skewed in favor of the US, and even then, the US was only partially committed to involvement in the war throughout the duration of its involvement in it.

Similarly, the Soviets massively outgunned the Afghan mujahideen in Afghanistan. The images preserved in public memory of insurgents shooting down scores of Soviet aircraft with ease using American Stingers is misrepresentative of the conflict. The mujahideen spent far more time getting blown up by the Soviets than they did inflicting this same treatment upon the Soviets. The Soviets left because their country’s economy was in the shitter and they weren’t exactly succeeding at winning over to Soviet communism the Afghans - who time after time, have consistently been shown to give zero shits about foreign political ideology.

The Russians (and their predecessor in the Soviet Union) have not suffered military defeats of this scale since WW2. Their failures in Chechnya and Afghanistan have nothing on their debacle in Ukraine. If we are to draw a historical comparison - and I usually eschew the generalizing cliche that history repeats - perhaps this is their next 1905?

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u/LordAwesomesauce Sep 23 '22

The Russo-Japanese war. Japan kicked their ass and announced their arrival as a world power.

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u/gimpwiz Sep 23 '22

Funnily enough, as the Russians prepared to fight the Japanese, they were so confident that - the direct(ish) translation is that they would win by "throwing their hats [at them.]"

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u/jametron2014 Sep 23 '22

And thus, Odd Job was born. Followed closely by his descendant, Random Task.

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u/OccupyRiverdale Sep 23 '22

Looking at casualties alone it’s clear this is much much worse for Russia than Vietnam was for the United States. The United States different around 58,000 casualties over the course of the war which lasted from 1955-1975. To be fair the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution was passed in 1964 which saw the first major deployment of combat troops so if you just want to start counting from there it’s around 5,200 casualties a year. The Russians are estimated to have around 80,000 casualties in 7 months! That’s 11,000 a month. The numbers are vastly and demonstrate you cannot compare the societal damage done by them.

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u/Stinkyclamjuice15 Sep 23 '22

The extent of my knowledge on this ends with metal gear solid 5.

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u/wires_dont_talk Sep 23 '22

Crazy how badass the Afghans are. How the hell did they become such good fighters. Reminds me of "Lone Survivor." Those guys were relentless.

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u/batdan Sep 23 '22

I suspect they weren’t good fighters so much as they just never gave up.

I heard once that all wars are wars of attrition. The loser is not defeated. They just give up.

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u/Uglik Sep 23 '22

I mean, definitely not all wars. The Mongols and Romans would slaughter whole cities if they didn’t submit.

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u/Thinking_waffle Sep 23 '22

The Romans also survived being defeated over and over again thanks to a relentless idea that they would win every war legally declared because those would be approved by the gods and therefore those gods would grant them victory. Lots of other polities would have made peace at some point during the second Punic war, heck even during the first one after losing their third navy. But no, they continued over and over until Carthage sued for peace... then once in a position of strength they could afford to be the colony founding, monument building pricks we all know and love.

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u/batdan Sep 23 '22

Yeah, ALL is definitely an exaggeration.

Could the US have won the war in Afghanistan if we were willing to systematically eradicate those who opposed us? Probably.

Thankfully, our portion of the world doesn’t generally accept that sort of behavior.

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u/uiucecethrowaway999 Sep 23 '22

We did win, in the sense that we defeated the Taliban with ease. Compared to the Iraqi military of 1991/2003 who we steamrolled through, the Taliban were/are mere ragtag rebels.

We lost because we tried to prop up Western style liberalism in a country that didn’t give two fucks about such ideologies. It’s hard to give a shit about liberalism/communism/fascism/etc. when your country hasn’t even gone through the Industrial Revolution or some equivalent of it.

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u/sin-and-love Sep 23 '22

their country is mountainous caves, so it's like playing whack-a-mole and minesweeper at the same time.

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u/uiucecethrowaway999 Sep 23 '22 edited Sep 23 '22

That’s not really the point though.

The Mujahideen forces had no chance of defeating the Soviets in any military bout. It isn’t surprising - no amount of pluck or ‘insert ethnic group> fighting courage’ can defeat overwhelming firepower.

The Soviets, like the US later on (albeit to a lesser degree - American forces never even came close to struggling against the Taliban) failed in Afghanistan because their objective of spreading their political ideologies/influence in the country failed.

American liberalism and Soviet communism are ideologies that have practically defined the modern political viewpoint worldwide. But this is not so much the case in Afghanistan, wherein politics is still largely determined by tribal, ethnic, and religious differences. The legacy of the exploited European factory workers that inspired Marx or the secular individualism of liberalism would understandably have no sway on a people who have fought, lived, and thought along tribal/ethnic/religious divides in a industrially/economically primitive country for all their lives.

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u/Equivalent_Yak8215 Sep 23 '22

So...Afghanistan?

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u/seanflyon Sep 23 '22

Like Afghanistan, but a lot worse for Russia. They have already lost more people in Ukraine than they did in Afghanistan.

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u/Boxy310 Sep 23 '22

"We've had one Vietnam, yes. But what about Second Vietnam?"

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u/Donkey__Balls Sep 23 '22

I don’t think Putin knows about second Vietnams, Pip…

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u/AnAutisticGuy Sep 23 '22

It's also looking like a Russian Afghanistan where, let's say, the Russias attacked Afghanistan and lost many lives and then lost anyway.

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u/Toolazytolink Sep 23 '22

Im gna need a HBO Band of Brothers type show when this ends, Ukrainian hero's need their stories to be seen

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u/randomnameandanumber Sep 23 '22

Don't worry, there'll be no shortage of movies and docs about Zelensky over the next 20 years.

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u/Future_Chipmunk_7897 Sep 23 '22

While waiting, check out the documentary Winter on Fire.

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u/chickenstalker Sep 22 '22

Little old Iranian ladies put up more of a fight. Sad to see Russian men are so weak.

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u/puesyomero Sep 23 '22 edited Sep 23 '22

To be fair women are badass and tend to start a lot of successful movements.

The french revolution started as a lady led bread riot for example.

edit. and more topically the Russian Women's Strike of 1917 brought down the Tsar

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u/LuckyDaemonius Sep 23 '22

Good thing comparing men and women and calling one weak or the other weak. Lets throw some sexism into an already fucked up situation.

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u/OnoobOrak Sep 23 '22

Russians are afraid of their police and not afraid of tanks, himars and artillery on the frontline. Strange people

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u/randomnameandanumber Sep 23 '22

They might survive a war, they surely won't survive being arrested for sedition.

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u/[deleted] Sep 23 '22

[deleted]

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u/PersonOfInternets Sep 23 '22

No! They are all cowards because they are doing exactly what we would do -- I MEAN they are being pussies

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u/spirited1 Sep 23 '22

Neither will their families. Ukraine isn't going to be the one kicking their doors down.

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '22

Lol. Do you mean that Russian women don't have to protest?

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u/bucketup123 Sep 23 '22

I think he specified men because they are the ones being drafted.

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u/HACCAHO Sep 22 '22

To scale the protests are like a straw protested against the tsunami.

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u/[deleted] Sep 23 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/TreeChangeMe Sep 23 '22

So they can only set anti personal traps in Ukraine and not in their own police stations. It would be a shame to have a truck full of fuel roll into a police barracks at high speed

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