r/worldnews Sep 22 '22 Helpful 4 Wholesome 7 All-Seeing Upvote 2 Take My Energy 1 Take My Power 1 Silver 2

Zelenskyy calls on Russians to 'protest' and 'fight back' against Putin's draft if they 'want to survive' Russia/Ukraine

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886

u/Alphal66 Sep 22 '22 Wholesome

Isn't it kinda ironic that the winter is against the Russian army for a change?

582

u/reckless150681 Sep 22 '22

Not really. Remember the Winter War? Russia tried invading Finland in the dead of winter and they were 100% not ready.

People like to make "haha don't invade Russia in winter" memes but forget that the Russians themselves are guilty of the very same thing lol

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u/Nobel6skull Sep 22 '22

Also worth mentioning that if you have proper gear the winter ice is far better then the spring mud.

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u/briancbrn Sep 23 '22

Mud is fucking terrible. I once got the pleasure of watching a new driver get a six wheel drive transport truck stuck.

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u/Plasibeau Sep 23 '22

I think about the off road custom built rigs with transfer cases to make a semi truck driver weep and articulated suspension with zero point turning that some guys build. They take these things up sheer cliff faces! The type of mud to stick a SIX wheel drive vehicle must be some other worldly shit because I can't even imagine.

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u/briancbrn Sep 23 '22

Oh nah it ain’t nothing special like that. Just new drivers stopping a massive vehicle in the middle of mud and letting it sink a little.

Still blew my mind that someone actually stopped when you had every tool in your box to just continue through.

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u/WonAnotherCitizen Sep 23 '22

There's a bit of a weight difference there lol

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u/the_YellowRanger Sep 23 '22

He started in the spring mud and lost his best equipment to it. If he makes it to next spring, mud will abound

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u/Winterspawn1 Sep 23 '22

This time a stuck convoy will be destroyed with artillery and MLRS though. Not like early during the war when Ukraine had almost nothing to fight back with.

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u/Mintastic Sep 23 '22

Seems the gist is to just stop having wars in that region in general cuz it sucks ass for everyone involved.

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u/koavf Sep 23 '22

And also hundreds of millions who aren't directly involved.

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u/Perry7609 Sep 23 '22 edited Sep 23 '22

I went to the National World War I Museum in Kansas City not too long ago, and it blew my mind how the mud in the trenches cost so much damage and even lives.

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u/notherenot Sep 22 '22

A meme is a meme at the end of the day, people forget its not a rule and you can't take it too seriously

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u/reckless150681 Sep 23 '22

I want historical accuracy in my historical memes, dammit!

3

u/Alexander_Granite Sep 23 '22

Russia has a problem invading other countries and not quite being ready

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u/crazedizzled Sep 23 '22

People like to make "haha don't invade Russia in winter" memes but forget that the Russians themselves are guilty of the very same thing lol

The trick is, don't invade anyone in winter. It's much easier to be planted and defend in winter than it is to advance.

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u/wires_dont_talk Sep 23 '22

Maybe Ukraine could practice scorched earth policy on the Russians instead of vice versa

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u/reckless150681 Sep 23 '22

Bad idea. Not only is it strategically unsound (why would you make it increasingly difficult for your supply lines to reach you?) but it would also completely undermine the goodwill Ukraine has. Ukraine is winning the moral war by not stooping to Russia's level.

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u/wires_dont_talk Sep 23 '22

True, not everywhere but maybe in areas where they have to worry about being flanked. There's a reason I'm not a military strategist lol.

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u/LMFN Sep 23 '22

Russia also claims Ukraine doesn't have a right to exist and is just part of Russia.

So Russia invaded "Russia" in winter. Morons.

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u/WhuddaWhat Sep 23 '22

Invading Russia?

I guess they have totally overtaken russia. The russians.

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u/Manos_Of_Fate Sep 23 '22

Aren’t there jokes in Russia about the snow speaking Finnish?

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u/Assault_Gunner Sep 23 '22

People are dumbass if they think the Russians are immune to winter.

The Soviet soldiers sent to fight in Finland are folks from cities and villages where they are safe and comfortable around the fireplace. Not to mention alcohol to keep them warm.

The Finnish people spent time in the wilderness, and during winter. Their ancestors taught them how to survive.

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u/BeautifulType Sep 23 '22

People are like “fuck capitalism” by the real fuckery is that memes influence a whole lotta people into seeing dumber than conservative Americans

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u/RayTracing_Corp Sep 23 '22

Bad example because Russia won that war albeit at a steep cost.

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u/reckless150681 Sep 23 '22

Not a bad example. The lack of Russian preparedness objectively led to innumerable preventable deaths. Strategic victories are not the only type of victory. It's like saying seatbelts are ineffective because they don't outright prevent automotive deaths - true, but they certainly reduce the number and that's enough to talk about.

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u/skolioban Sep 22 '22

Well, the saying is a warning to not invade Russia during winter and Putin claims Ukraine is Russia so....

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u/Mytzplk Sep 22 '22

Contrary to belief, if you wanted to invade Russia it would be during winter when your supply lines are the shortest and more manageable.

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u/dylandgs Sep 23 '22

Is it contrary to belief or contrary to it has happened before in history and those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it?

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u/Mytzplk Sep 23 '22

Both Hitler and Napoleon started their invasion of Russia in the summer time and by the time they were at/near Moscow, they were in the middle of the Russian winter. So no, I'm not ignoring history

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u/AccountantNotEditor Sep 23 '22

To be honest, I don’t think that whole cliche is very accurate to begin with. It’d be more accurate to say that one should not fight a war in Russia during the winter, and even then, one could makes arguments. Hitler and Napoleon did not invade in the winter, as you note, but they fell victim to poor planning, leaving them caught out in the Russian winter. I personally believe the real takeaway, regardless of whatever cliche saying is used, should instead be that logistics and planning wins wars, while a lack thereof will doom any army.

It’s very clear that Russia is lacking in the “logistics and planning” department of warfare, and I believe it will ultimately be that which results in their defeat.

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u/ArcanaVision Sep 23 '22

In fact historically Rus was invaded in all seasons, with spring being the worse.

They even made a game about it. https://spacebiff.com/2022/06/20/nevsky/

Where the Teutonic nights tried to take Novgorod.

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u/JumpyButterscotch Sep 23 '22

Shorter? More manageable? The lines would be under a few feet of snow.

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u/fohpo02 Sep 23 '22

Winter also didn’t change the length of the lines, just the elements they endure

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u/Mytzplk Sep 23 '22

Would it be easier to supply your army under a few feet of snow 50 miles away from your borders or 1,000 miles away?

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u/Duff5OOO Sep 23 '22

Yeah im still lost.

if you wanted to invade Russia it would be during winter when your supply lines are the shortest and more manageable.

Why are they shorter and more manageable?

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u/Chroiche Sep 23 '22 edited Sep 23 '22

Start invasion in summer. Supply line is easy to manage and close to border, so short. Winter comes, supply line now needs to be very long and the snow makes it very hard to maintain. Supply lines are now unmanageable and you get blasted to hell, you lose your gains from summer in the process.

Start invasion in winter. Supply line is hard to manage but short, so it's doable. Summer comes, supply line is a fair bit longer but easier to manage. Supply lines have been consistently manageable.

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u/Flitcheroo Sep 23 '22

Because if you just started to invade, you aren’t that far into the country. Therefor your supply lines are shorter.

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u/Duff5OOO Sep 23 '22

So start your invasion in winter because its a bonus that you will be stuck 50km from your border instead of after winter where you could aim to push significantly further? As far as positives go it's up there with "Invade in winter so half your conscripts freeze to death and you only need to get half the rations to the front!"

I mean, I'm no military strategist but that sounds like a really bad idea.

It seems like Putins going to try a form of this just before winter either way.

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u/martin519 Sep 23 '22

Maybe they're saying that you start in winter and assuming expansion goes into spring? Yeah I'm stretching to understand this too.

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u/TSnydes Sep 23 '22

They are saying (I am not saying this is correct): In a hypothetical invasion of Russia you would want to start in the Winter.

This assumes the attacking nation has prepared for a Winter invasion prior to attacking (cold weather gear is standard issue, extra vehicular resources prepared, etc).

This also assumes that the front lines were closer to the home country original boarders making supplying those troops easier in Winter.

This then assumes that as the weather warms the troops will have Spring, Summer, and Fall to reach some achievement.

This finally assumes that the achievement (assuming capture Moscow and some other vital cities) was achieved by Fall thus ending the war.

I would say that the Spring is actually worse than Winter because the mud cannot be as easily overcome as snow. This may have been accurate in the 19th or 20th century, but today victory is not attained through the capture of cities (as Napoleon found out), so who is to say you would not create an Afghanistan or Vietnam. I would say all nations are more sensitive to death than they used to be, so a full scale invasion of a developed country where attrition from weather cause armies to die would not happen. I would also say Nuclear weapons would end the conflict before it even started.

Fun thought experiment, but probably useless nowadays.

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u/Duff5OOO Sep 23 '22

Maybe they are just hoping Putin follows some shit advice from reddit and sends his people into frozen hell.

Life is going to suck for these conscripts in winter. Ukraine is going to be kitted out in the best cold weather gear we can ship them. How much cold can one endure before they turn/surrender?

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u/LPNDUNE Sep 23 '22

Pretty sure we have the technology to move snow from roads in this day and age.

Solid ground across plains and agricultural areas,as well as being able to move across rivers and lakes freely makes moving supplies easier in the cold.

Spring mud and open water extend your timelines way more than snow on roads.

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u/vanguarde Sep 23 '22

Why would it be shorter? Certainly not more manageable.

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u/littleseizure Sep 23 '22

I think mean starting in winter vs starting in summer and getting to winter - might as well resupply in snow at the start of an invasion than at the end when you’re 1000 miles in

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u/nebaa Sep 23 '22

During summer the supply lines expand due to thermal expansion, learn some physics smh my head

1

u/Several_Swordfish481 Sep 23 '22

When you start an invasion you are not very far from your homeland once you start to take territory, assuming success, as your invasion continues, your occupying soldiers become located farther and farther from your homeland.

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u/the_YellowRanger Sep 23 '22

He done fucked up.

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u/KingoftheMongoose Sep 23 '22

Never start a land war in Asia!

...whoops

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u/Few_Advisor3536 Sep 22 '22

Germany’s supply lines were cut and the winter in russia was harsh. Soviet troops also suffered in the winter during ww2. They werent immune to the cold. Sub zero temperatures dont pick sides. The russians are going to struggle as an invader but ive been worrying about the winter for ukranians since the war began. Without proper shelter their people will also suffer especially the old.

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u/Dense-Nectarine2280 Sep 22 '22

Germany was stretched out and didn't get resupplied. The Luftwaffe was supposed to resupply the army, but Hitlers head at that time was too far up his own ass, and refused to listen to his generals.

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u/kreschatka Sep 23 '22

Stalingrad/Volgograd is almost 3000 km from Berlin. That’s a long supply line especially in 1940s. Ukraine is on its own turf. And if they can get ATACMS. They can wreck the supply lines.

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u/Dense-Nectarine2280 Sep 23 '22

The germans did so much wrong in the Russian campaign.

They allready had Poland and most of Ukrain, they could go for Moscow, but chose stalingrad instead, out of spite I think. Hitler hated Stalin. The problem was, when that plan didn't work, Hitler just abandonded the whole campaign, and made sure noone in germany found out.

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u/kreschatka Sep 23 '22

Plus the Germans were fighting on two fronts.

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u/Dense-Nectarine2280 Sep 23 '22

True. A bad move. They also failed in securing the oil fields of Azerbaijan. So they also went out of fuel

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u/Kaymish_ Sep 23 '22

They really needed the oilfields in the caucuses; it would have been a double blow. Reducing the fuel available to the Soviets and giving the Germans a fuel injection they desperately needed.

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u/SiarX Sep 23 '22

They went for Moscow in 1941, in did not work. They went for Stalingrad in 1942 because it was critically important for succesful Baku (i.e. capturing oil fields) campaign and cutting off water supply through Volga.

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u/ukchinouk Sep 23 '22

Head too far up his ass to listen? That sounds kinda familiar…

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u/CyberMindGrrl Sep 23 '22

Craniarectal Syndrome is a common disease for dictators.

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u/Dense-Nectarine2280 Sep 23 '22

Yeah, megalomaniacs tend to exercise the same behaviour at some point

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u/6501 Sep 23 '22

The Luftwaffe also told Hitler they could supply the army when they couldn't, probably because they were scared that saying no would lead to them being shot or something.

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u/nashedPotato4 Sep 23 '22

The fact that Putin has people of influence speaking out against him now tells you how crazy shit has gotten.

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u/Dense-Nectarine2280 Sep 23 '22

This could go to crazytown on the crazytrain

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u/[deleted] Sep 23 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

[deleted]

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u/Dense-Nectarine2280 Sep 23 '22

Nice summary friend. Apreciate the effort :) Would give you a coin, but don't have any atm

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u/BadMcSad Sep 23 '22 edited Sep 23 '22

Thing is, if every single combatant soldier on both sides throughout the entirety of Russia had died to hypothermia, that'd still mean a failed invasion for the Nazi's. I'd argue nature usually picks the defenders' side if it decides to participate. It's just kinda stupid and doesn't really pay attention when you're asking it to stop killing friendlies.

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u/WizardGoo Sep 23 '22

I was wondering about this the other day. Does nothing exist that can keep soldiers warm in the winter?

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u/nashedPotato4 Sep 23 '22

Saying at home in front of the fire and not invading other countries.

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u/Gwtheyrn Sep 23 '22

As far as the soldiers go, the allies are getting sub-zero gear ready to ship over. They know what the Ukrainians need.

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u/WizardGoo Sep 23 '22

I was wondering about this the other day. Does nothing exist that can keep soldiers warm enough in the winter?

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u/nashedPotato4 Sep 23 '22

(see above)

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u/NoPattern1 Sep 23 '22

NATO announced last month that they were outfitting Ukraine with cold weather gear. NATO countries constantly do cold weather training so their stuff is well tested and works. Ukrainian soldiers should be nice and toast when they step over the orcsicles.

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u/Combocore Sep 22 '22 edited Sep 23 '22

You know, the Red Army shot 16,000 of their own men at Stalingrad. And of course, the majority of the Wehrmacht had no winter clothing. See, by the winter of '42, the whole city was surrounded by the massed 6th army. It was pressing, and pressing; the Russians couldn't hold on much longer. Many wanted to submit.

The German supply lines were stretched. Zhukov countered... and the siege was broken. And that's all the story of Stalingrad.

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u/SgtSting Sep 23 '22

Mark, you know I don't just bang anyone, yeah? I'm not some kind of nextdoor fuck jar.

1

u/CaptainLegkick Sep 23 '22

Glad someone else was reading this in their Mark voice.

"Johnson!"

"Mark?!"

"Johnson!!"

"Mark!!"

-1

u/davser Sep 23 '22

By far this was the battle were most people died.

Every one of those people have an history.

I understand your try of a summary, but this battle have so much argument that a summary will always fail.

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u/Combocore Sep 23 '22

Just stay mute, /u/combocore. You’re a social freak. Remain in your compound.

0

u/davser Sep 23 '22

I didn’t say that at all.

But when you say “that’s all the story of Stalingrad” it looks like it was a common tedious battle.

And I’m sure that’s not what you think and not what’s the battle was.

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u/Decyde Sep 23 '22

It's against both sides.

Ukraine asked for winter gear for its soilders and I'm not sure if it came yet.

It will obviously come but if winter comes early this year, the world will be fucked.

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u/TheBigIdiotSalami Sep 22 '22

Can't beat the odds every time.

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u/Aoae Sep 23 '22

Not sure why people are focusing on this detail. The idea is to mobilize soldiers now and train them over the winter so that they will be combat-ready in the spring. How effectively this can be done by the current Russian military is a different matter.

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u/kento502 Sep 23 '22

It turns out the winter is always against the Nazis!

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u/Xilizhra Sep 23 '22

That's because they're always invading.

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u/TheMadmanAndre Sep 23 '22

Putin not only invaded Russia in winter (in his mind he thinks Ukraine is Russia), he also started a land war in Asia (The east of Ukraine is technically Asia).

So yeah, there's a good reason he's doing so poorly now.

1

u/EntropicFade Sep 23 '22

I am kind of curious how climate change will affect Ukraines weather this winter if at all.

1

u/joshak Sep 23 '22

Is it though? It seems like Russia is currently on the back foot so having winter to bed down, train reserves and reinforce their stolen territory would benefit them.